Quote from SamH :

"senior"

:geezer:

Quote :

Someone showed me a Youtube vid a week or so ago, of several laps around Laguna Seca in a Radical (IIRC.. not very familiar with the cars). The driver swung the steering wheel from TDC to full lock left and right, as quick as possible, and made it comfortably all the way around the track without a problem, for about 8 minutes straight. I can't find the video now, but being perfectly frank, it didn't look good.

You sure that wasn't an in-car vid of Tristan?

dr

Quote from Gnomie :

Now this I just can't understand. Are you using headphones or speakers? IMO headphones are essential (unless you have really good speakers) for simracing. There's so much info! With the Solstice (which is the only car I'm really familiar with) I can tell precisely how close I am to locking up my brakes, and how close I am to exceeding the optimal slip angle, based on sound alone. I do agree that the sound (and force feedback, for that matter) with the Skippy is kinda weird when you're sliding excessively, but that's my only gripe so far. IMO, iRacing > LFS >>>>> nKP in terms of tire sounds.

Indeed, I would agree to this. I think LFS has a very good model for tire sounds, but LFSs model is so much more simplistic in terms of presentation that it might seem more 'obvious'. I would tend to class them around the same in this area of comparison overall.

What I can't stop shaking my head over is the assertion that iRacing has serious physics issues. I'm starting to think that LFS bogus setup options are really starting to skew some people's pereptions of what realistic responses are and are not. I would wager that a very small fraction of competitive drivers in LFS use setups that are anywhere near what would be acheiveable (or desireable!) in a comparable vehicle in real life(tm).

I have zero problems getting the radical to step out in slower turns (quite the opposite, although the *default setup* is understeer city), but it has a ton of mechanical grip and once you overcome it you'd better be on your toes. I also have no issues, rather literally, drifting the Star Mazda around slower turns (and faster ones, but that's not usually intentional :razz. I *most certainly* cannot turn in the air, and I get caught braking too late at the top of the hill at Leguna more often that I'd care to share as well. I also get caught turning in to much at the bottom of the screw for the same reason.

It's probably not possible to give a remotely fair "comparison" if all you play is generally LFS, unless you're going to try iRacing for at the minimum a few weeks every day. LFS does some horrible things to your brain when you're used to la-la land setups. That's not the fault (entirely) of the tire model, but the allowance for stupid setups that exploit the shortcomings that ARE there, which probably are not all that severe without being amplified in said manner.

LFS is more convenient
LFS is a small fraction of the cost
LFS currently has more diversity of vehicles

LFS it's the best sim for what you pay, bar none. There isn't even a close second.

Likewise, iRacing's vehicle dynamics, graphics, tracks, and sound are quite a lot better than anything available, including LFS.

Both sims have glaring, frustrating shortcomings in some of the same, and some different areas, that's for certain.

Too bad the OP has the controller issues he's experiencing, I'm really thankful that I don't have those issues as it would ruin any sim for me.

Many Foot lbs of torque!!!

Quote from Becky Rose :

I'm happy with a glass of gin, some music, and friends. Unfortunately i'm told this is alchoholism, so some nights I play a number of different MMO's on an entire casual basis in order not to drink every night.

What good is WoW without booze!?! (J/K... sort of...)

I play WoW, Crysis, iRacing, and Wii: Super Mario Galaxy is fun!

I'm sure I'll be checking LFS out again in a few year, or 5

Quote from Mp3 Astra :

Now, I haven't played iRacing, but from talking to several LFS'ers there are lots of good and bad points. However, I haven't heard about the physics in so much detail. Brilliant write-up in terms of detail and linguistic devices

I wouldn't put a whole lot of emphasis on the physics portion TBH . At least not until we can drive FWD cars w/ locked diffs in iRacing and compare

Quote from Mattesa :

In terms of FFB... the real functional FFB... iRacing falls short of LFS and NKP. A lot of people are equating more bumpy=better FFB, and that really isn't the case. The nuanced way the FFB communicates the car in LFS and NKP is truly exceptional.

I've found that messing with the drivers per above (although I don't go as high as 119%) changes this considerable.

Also:
Caster & LFS.

Quote from SamH :

I come from a very religious family. I've BEEN very religious in the past. I got better though

[edit] PS: having your opinions or your bollocks removed is not a prerequisite for becoming an LFS forum moderator. I'm still allowed to voice one, and play with the other two.

Heh, fair enough. And I know your background. You should listen to your father

Quote from spanks :

What you say about the laser scanned tracks is true up to a point for me.

If it is THE laguna seca, then I do care if that pothole is right there in the right spot. Especially since laser scanning is not just about bumps and holes. It gives slight variations in pitch and camber that really authenticates the experience. Plus those nasty bumps or crests in turns that get you loose every time.

After iracing real life tracks in sims are judged to a different level.

If they are fantasy tracks, then sure..make them how you wish. However the bumps at South city in the sim don't give the same feel as the bumps in iracing. I don't know if this is a difference in the bumps or the engine itself, but I greatly prefer the feel of iracing.

100% agree.

Very subtle Sam, very subtle - I would've thought a mod with some life experience would have to be above religous bigotry .

Anyway, in the same way that if you think Mariokart(tm) is as realistic as LFS, then you're stupid - same thing. And the fact that I don't need a force dynamics to say so just means the point is even more valid.

That is my official wanker opinion, no one's forcing you to take it!

Quote from UncleBenny :

They better wait until my one month is up because I don't want to have to buy it.

Hehe, I figured you'd be interested so I just had to mention it

Quote from PMD9409 :

Yeah, some people get annoying, but some make really good points.

Sadly every forum has their annoying people. You should of been around in beta when people was joining just to say on the forum that iRacing is going to fail because of what they did to NR2003.

It's everywhere sadly.

I think he's actually referring to me Too much of a pup to realize I used to say useful things here on occassion I suppose

Quote from S14 DRIFT :

... I'm in no way a 'fanboy' of LFS, I myself think that it's lacking behind the times in terms of outright simulation, you have to consider and understand that there's only so much a team of 3 can do.

Yeah, but I don't really care about that excuse anymore. I used to though. Also, that same three used to do a lot more in a lot less time (and don't bother giving me that 'the standard is higher, things take longer' now line, it only works for the first two years).

Quote :

But it's true, being 'better' is all a matter of opinion. Some say NFS is better than LFS because it's more customizable, same goes with rFactor. Some say iRacing is better because it's more detailed, has real tracks (LAZAR SCANNED WOW!!!!!!) and real cars.

No, being better in terms of a simulation - which is the whole context here - is not subjective, at all. Fun is subjective, accuracy is not. And for a sim, accuracy is what attacts the user first and foremost. FWIW, I thought that the lazer scanning was a gimmick as well, but I see the error of my ways now. iRacing's tracks really are fantastically done - the road surfaces do feel very alive.

Quote :

To me, it seems YOU are the fanboy (but of iRacing) because you only seem to be interested in the outright simulation, as opposed to the whole package.

Heh, I used to be accused of being and LFS fanboy too. But never by you

Quote :

When LFS is in a S2 final, or possibly S3 Alpha, then it's probably fair to directly compare LFS to iRacing, but what you're doing is comparing a piece of ALPHA software designed by 3 blokes to a piece of NON ALPHA software and definatly has a MUCH larger team than 3, working to higher budgets. Yet I don't see any overly large flaws in LFS, considering it's a piece of Alpha software, it's much more stable than any other game I've tried, and that's not some fan-boy talk, that's genuine.

Scawen himself has stated that it's 'fair to compare LFS to whatever you like', and I agree. iRacing could have an Alpha tag right now, it has a lot of missing features that they plan to implement. It still doesn't even have stalling. Engine damage was just added recently, etc. So, really, let's call it the iRacing Alpha from now on mmk? After all, it is still being worked on and has many features planned. And I submit to you that it's just as incomplete feature wise as LFS is at the moment, and in some ways more incomplete and thus should be given even more special consideration for comparisions.. right?

And yes, LFS is very well designed and very stable etc and whatnot, ad nausem.

Quote :

And you are comparing a racing simulation to an MMO, which is like comparing Tomato Ketchup to Branston Pickle.

Ridiculous. You commented on the business model, and the context of it really is no different. Log on, play with others. Both require other humans to make it work. You act like the cost itself is just such a big issue, when it's not. If it was an issue, or reserved it for the rich, then WoW could not be successful. Therefore, the price really is not a relevant negative aspect if iRacing, from a business viability standpoint. If you don't like it, that's fine nobody is forcing you to. But that's a personal idea - unlike accuracy.

Quote :

To ME, LFS is better because it offers amazing pickup and play racing, great value and a semi-decent community, and what's more, I get free updates for life.

Indeed, nobody is disputing what you prefer - prefer what you will mate.

Quote from UncleBenny :

Ran the Solstice and Radical some more. The cars just didn't feel attached to the road for some reason and I had no feeling for what the car was going to do. Decided to put on my headphones and cranked the volume way up, boy did that make a difference. Once I could get a feel for what the tires were doing with the headphones on it was like I was playing a whole different game, I was sliding the cars all over the place and could actually catch it now, was a lot of fun.

I can't wait to try the C6-R that will be available soon

Quote from S14 DRIFT :

Well I'm just saying that iRacing is the price of LFS... for ONE month, and the resources available to it are much greater. It's obviously newer so therefore is more detailed and etc. Being 'better' is a relative term, sure the GAME itself may be better, but who wants to spend that much for a pay-to-play subscription after all...

That is in fact not what you said.. maybe it's what you're saying now, because you have nothing better to say than "it's expensive - wah!" and "mm, what does better really mean? mumble".

Yes LFS is cheaper. By a lot.
Yes iRacing is better. By a lot, in ways that matter to a simulation.

Who wants to pay to play?
Quite a few people apparantly.

Not to mention, oh, around 12 MILLION World of Warcraft players. So much for the idea that a subscription business model is inherantly a mass put-off.

Now, back to your point about... erm, what was your point again? Oh right. "LFS isn't done and doesn't have as much resources". Thanks for the ground breaking revelatory insight of cataclysmic proportion!

Sorry to be harsh, but next time you feel the impulse to say something defensive because someone actually likes (the only) better sim than LFS - you won't. Do some of you collect cheques for each iteration of a LFS fanboy statement or something?

How the hell could I forget that?

Oh wait... iRacing isn't finished either!11shiftone

edit: I didn't mean detachable components BTW, I meant bad rendering where things don't look proper. I'm also not anti-LFS. How long was I here defending LFS to idiots? I still like it, and now that something actually better has been made, I can admit it and enjoy it instead of jumping in with the usual round of pro-LFS BS defense phrases.

Last edited by Ball Bearing Turbo, Wed 25 Feb 2009, 23:19.

Quote from Matrixi :

I guess we've been playing a whole different sim?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGrqebP-xGU&fmt=18

Heh - no kidding.

I had a lot to say about Jakg's "opinion" of his go with 30 mins of iRacing, but I better hold back.

(although that was the most uninformed spontaneously ignorant "review" I've ever read :P)

Quote from Jertje :

In that regard, the Legends car is a far better introduction to oval racing in iRacing than the Solstice is to road racing.

Heh, I can't get enough of the Legends with a road setup... Kind of gives a whole new perspective on throttle steer!

The absolute only downfall in my opinion right now to iRacing is diversity in vehicles, and that is changing all the time. The turbocharged Solstice would be a blast for instance

I left both LFS and iRacing for a few months to do other things, and came back to them both recently - at least to practice. There really is no comparision in physics and really in FFB as well. I do find it strange to call iRacing's graphics cartoony (which they kind of are I suppose), when driving at South City or Fern Bay looks just fecking like iRacing, but with much less detail.... Personally I find it much more "cartoony" to have detached suspension arms and missing suspension components on a car

If you've ever driven a car around the limit, iRacing will be intuitive for you. In fact, it really goes to show me just how screwed up LFS's setup options have made the sim - it's likely really hampered decent physics advancements. The fact that you have to use the most ridiculous setup to be competitive in a "race" in LFS is in fact an issue that contributes to some people not taking LFS seriously, because the way the fastest people run the car in LFS makes it behave really weird, yet really fast.

If you can't see in less than 30 mins that iRacing's vehicle dynamics are really rather superior to those of LFS, then you're probably stupid . (No offence to the stupid intended)

Very nice post, glad to have you here!

Indeed, that wasn't the whole story as you very nicely expanded on, generalities are not invaribale truths

What a manly thread!

Quote from tristancliffe :

except You Still Haven't Realised That That Thread Was A Counterpoint Itself, And Your Thread Throws Out The Balance It sought To Restore

Ftfy

I know that guy..

This should get interesting... (edit: at least comparatively speaking)

/subscribe

It's based on forces acting through the virtual steering rack, so it reacts constantly. No "canned" effects or preprogrammed shinanigans.

I must assume there's a terminology difference between there and here? Or have I missed something in 4.5 years?

Quote from Quint999 :

A few good things coming soon + they seem to be moving towards regular updates / blogs on future patches etc( Dave Kaemers post in the forum )

Gee, look at that.... information on development! What a cutting edge philosophy for a racing sim that is! I guess they must not be bound in fear of the mere perception of accountability - and/or just like to keep customer happy despite the vocal minority that may twist what they say. Kudos.

I bet that blog will be a great read, looking foward to it.

nm, grats

Quote from danthebangerboy :

I personally thing they should put a wasp in there, see how fast they can get it to go!

Actually, for once I think this is one time where I enjoyed reading what W4H said. Not sure why you guys are jumping down his throat?